Ozymandias

Event Durations

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Now that I'm back, I have had this problem I really wanted to address for a while.

Why are events going on for 3-4 hours at a time? There's no need for it. I know many Paragon players subscribe to "NO GUTS NO GLORY" difficulty in events like Throne of Thunder because, well, you're fighting the revived emperor of a race of titan constructs who ripped out the powers of the Titan Pantheon's watchers.

That's all well and good. But why are we now forced to do it in one sitting? What happened to the days like the Firelands where staff understood that people can't commit 4 hours a piece to events and broke up instances into stages? Getting to one boss, knocking them down, saying that it's more akin to a siege than an assassination and taking an hour or an hour and a half to do so each time, then dedicating an entire hour to the final boss alone. Those were the ideal way to do it I feel. What ever happened to the actual interest in putting effort into events so we aren't bombarded with "dms are lazy" "staff don't care"? The only person who's sat through these events all the way each time is Tassarah on one of her characters, and that's just because she's the DM. I find it more immersion breaking to start an event with one group and finish with a completely different group than not taking an hour to kill a "big strong orc!".

TL;DR
4 hour events are ridiculous and dumb, 1 hour is optimal, break long events down into multiple smaller events and let everyone enjoy them

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Probably cause 2 of those hours are the players talking/arguing/trying to figure out 2+2/or all the above.

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Now that I'm back, I have had this problem I really wanted to address for a while.

 

Why are events going on for 3-4 hours at a time? There's no need for it. I know many Paragon players subscribe to "NO GUTS NO GLORY" difficulty in events like Throne of Thunder because, well, you're fighting the revived emperor of a race of titan constructs who ripped out the powers of the Titan Pantheon's watchers.

 

That's all well and good. But why are we now forced to do it in one sitting? What happened to the days like the Firelands where staff understood that people can't commit 4 hours a piece to events and broke up instances into stages? Getting to one boss, knocking them down, saying that it's more akin to a siege than an assassination and taking an hour or an hour and a half to do so each time, then dedicating an entire hour to the final boss alone. Those were the ideal way to do it I feel. What ever happened to the actual interest in putting effort into events so we aren't bombarded with "dms are lazy" "staff don't care"? The only person who's sat through these events all the way each time is Tassarah on one of her characters, and that's just because she's the DM. I find it more immersion breaking to start an event with one group and finish with a completely different group than not taking an hour to kill a "big strong orc!".

 

TL;DR

4 hour events are ridiculous and dumb, 1 hour is optimal, break long events down into multiple smaller events and let everyone enjoy them

 

I can't speak for others but Landfall events and Isle of Thunder events have been broken down into stages. Raid bosses in Throne of Thunder - and the raids prior has always been some "trash" as it's called and then the boss.

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It takes, on a good day, 10-15 mins for 20 people to write their emote and then the DM answer to all of them and do the tedious work like moving NPCs -every- round. 1 hour  raid event would then be approx 4-5 rounds.  If there were like 5 people in each one then it would have a chance to work but alas, that's not the case.

 

Not to mention I've seen even the lightning-speed response-machines like Raz sometimes take 30 MINUTES to produce one round of action. That's not an attempt to criticize. That's simply saying that DMs are not computers. If you expect a satisfactory response from a DM (and people often except an actual good, satisfying response from the DM while he/she is DMing for 10+ people), every round can take something between 5 to 30 minutes of RL time. 

 

I doubt much RP can happen in 3-4 rounds really. Then again, it is my personal opinion that the majority of people attend these raid events for the rewards and "progression" rather than fun roleplay. That's what I do anyway, shamelessly so.

 

One could say, that the DMs often "drag out" the raids because they want to make it seem as if there is a chance of failure, even if canon lore dictates that the boss will fall either way, but I can't blame them. I imagine DMing these raids is the equivalent of doing the most tedious and predictable paperwork which gives no sense of satisfaction at all. It is normal that DMs would at least -attempt- to have fun while DMing. Otherwise they'd just write "These people went there and fought this dude and it was hard but in the end they prevailed."

 

That's basically the summary of pretty much every raid event I've been through.

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Events that take long are usually due to fights. Fights take longer to DM out because people, DMs included, take some time to respond usually, not to mention needing to keep it lasting long enough to avoid people go "UGH that was too easy..." but making fights 'just right' isn't always easy. If an event takes long due to combat then it's usually because of slower typing speed, unless you mean events in general (puzzles, finding stuff, etc) in which.. Well again emotes are typed out and people sometimes take long to type.

 

It's really a no brainer here.

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No solution.

 

Killing a boss in five swings is *yawn*, but that satisfies your hour restriction.

 

Killing a boss in twenty five swings makes you realise they're a formidable foe, but that takes five hours to produce maybe ten minutes of actual combat at its most realistic comparison to live.

 

Reducing the player cap from 30, to 20, to 10, increases the speed of each round formidably, but reduces the amount of people who can participate.

 

And then for bosses that actually have mechanics that can wipe you? They take six rounds to develop into a problem.

 

The bosses I do are built for roughly 15-25 rounds of combat, an exception will be Ra-den, which may be double that.

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Then why Raz were the firelands events only 1 to 2 hours long at a time? They weren't dropped in 5 emotes.

 

Are you really saying your system is now so different to how it was then that it requires 4 hours of time? Because I don't believe that. Just seems like an excuse.

Nothing you've said is really all that convincing, Drak & Tass. You've made the points that it takes time to reply to emotes, sure, but you also ignore the point that everyone emotes at once and the DM replies to all of them at once. Maybe that's not the best way of doing things? Maybe there's a better way that reduces time taken to reply each time and can be more efficient? Perhaps emote groups? I just can't see how a 4 hour long event is a desirable outcome or a tolerable one at that.

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...Yeah, my system is very different now.

 

Firelands didn't have health apart from on the boss. The system now has health monitored on everyone. I do proper mechanics and have to maintain them, inflicting appropriate damage when necessary. The old system I left that to everyone else's accord. Sure, they realised how shit things were becoming when half the platform was being devoured.

 

My boss events run for three hours max. I understand that is a fair limit and people say that three hours is a satisfactory time.

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Maybe there's a better way that reduces time taken to reply each time and can be more efficient? Perhaps emote groups? I just can't see how a 4 hour long event is a desirable outcome or a tolerable one at that.

 

Agreed with this. Instead of replying to everyone each, just make an emote per group, highlighting what everyone does in 5 words.

 

"Sariel's strike damaged the boss"

"Connor's fireball hit the boss"

"Aeden's shield blocked the attack"

 

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Maybe there's a better way that reduces time taken to reply each time and can be more efficient? Perhaps emote groups? I just can't see how a 4 hour long event is a desirable outcome or a tolerable one at that.

 

Agreed with this. Instead of replying to everyone each, just make an emote per group, highlighting what everyone does in 5 words.

 

"Sariel's strike damaged the boss"

"Connor's fireball hit the boss"

"Aeden's shield blocked the attack"

 

 

 

Except, that's how it's done. Sometimes, not all the time, DMs will add a reaction to some emotes to give the event a tiny bit more life.

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Maybe there's a better way that reduces time taken to reply each time and can be more efficient? Perhaps emote groups? I just can't see how a 4 hour long event is a desirable outcome or a tolerable one at that.

 

Agreed with this. Instead of replying to everyone each, just make an emote per group, highlighting what everyone does in 5 words.

 

"Sariel's strike damaged the boss"

"Connor's fireball hit the boss"

"Aeden's shield blocked the attack"

 

 

 

Except, that's how it's done. Sometimes, not all the time, DMs will add a reaction to some emotes to give the event a tiny bit more life.

 

 

Yeah I don't agree with diluting everyone's emotes down to a 4/5 word sentence, I think a general paragraph absorbing the emotes of the players into a reaction is far more tasteful. However the thing is if everyone emotes at once that is about a 4 paragraph long response minimum which takes about 15 minutes of standing around doing nothing. Raid groups. That's the best way I can see it.

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Maybe there's a better way that reduces time taken to reply each time and can be more efficient? Perhaps emote groups? I just can't see how a 4 hour long event is a desirable outcome or a tolerable one at that.

 

Agreed with this. Instead of replying to everyone each, just make an emote per group, highlighting what everyone does in 5 words.

 

"Sariel's strike damaged the boss"

"Connor's fireball hit the boss"

"Aeden's shield blocked the attack"

 

 

 

Except, that's how it's done. Sometimes, not all the time, DMs will add a reaction to some emotes to give the event a tiny bit more life.

 

 

Yeah I don't agree with diluting everyone's emotes down to a 4/5 word sentence, I think a general paragraph absorbing the emotes of the players into a reaction is far more tasteful. However the thing is if everyone emotes at once that is about a 4 paragraph long response minimum which takes about 15 minutes of standing around doing nothing. Raid groups. That's the best way I can see it.

 

 

I'll admit for raid-events I, along with some DMs, sometimes appreciate when players just emote "I do x" instead of giving a novel of how the wind flows through their hair while they move swiftly about, taking in every detail of the scenery and finally 4 lines of their weapon/spell making contact with the enemy.

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An event being 4 hours long doesn't exactly mean it's boring.

 

So? They're boring because the players spend 30 minutes standing around doing nothing between emotes. 60% (made up number) of the time in events is pretty much alt tabbing at this point in the server's DMing history. There's no interaction. No repour between attacker and defender. An elegant swordsman is reduced to "How much does the DM like you?" And mages are reduced to "Throws ball of x". It's tiresome, and events are boiled down to who does the DM like enough to make seem powerful and who is stuck hitting a grunt for 40 minutes.

 

There has to be a better way of doing things. There is no need for these huge events.

 

In response to Drak, that's because 25 players means 25 paragraphs of text. That's a short story to read through each turn. I get what you mean, I really do. There has to be a balance between trollishly long emotes and boringly short. Perhaps, as I suggested, not making everyone emote at once is the first step? 

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That'd still leave others with waiting around. If it's a large group I've found it's best to start writing replies immediately as you see the emotes come in, and if they're large novels just skim through them for important details (again, no need to know about special effects that's just fluff) so that when everyone's DONE the DM is at least half-way with writing emotes. Instead of only then starting.

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I agree with Bear, on this one.. For once. 

--

Having to sit for six hours straight at my PC, just to get through a bit of ToT, is fucking dumb. I'm on the fence of quitting the DM Team entirely, since I simply don't have time for that shit. Six hours?! SIX HOURS!?

 

And those six hours were without fluffy paragraphs of irrelevant shit. 

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I've wanted to make a suggestion for a while on certain raids where the players stop, maybe after two or so hours, at a logical point. A camp or forward position is set up to act as a hub until the next event. Again this would be only when logical. I think it'd help prompt RP surrounding the story since there would be a setting to RP in.

 

The way things usually go with events is everyone shows up, with a reason they tossed together, and then afterwards toss together a reason to leave. Stopping after 2 hours and setting up a defensive perimeter around the wing you cleared would be a good way to help spur RP and get those who participated a taste of the lore. Hell, maybe even DMs can send mini skirmishes if they like while players wait for the next event.

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i'd rather have an event with an important boss go for five hours and have 20-25 rounds of combat then one hour of 5-10 rounds of combat.

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Hey, my idea feeds into that. I'd rather have a few hours devoted to each section, with a nice long one for the final boss then gloss over most of the event and still take six hours to do it.

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In an ideal world we'd have some standardized combat system that kept everyone grounded and stopped combat from being drawn out thanks to artificial difficulty, but I've yet to see anyone propose an answer that wasn't over-reliant on rolls and such. The lack of actual danger and thrill is pretty depressing. Either enemies are too easy to beat or they're somehow incredibly adept and take multiple turns to down, all the while not doing any actual damage to the players. Even when DMs play their mobs smart, people complain about harsh DMs and other such nonsense

 

Doesn't help that most events have flocks of magi that basically negate any risk unless the enemy you're facing is some ethereal archmage that can resist literally all forms of harm

 

Vykax's idea is probably about as good as you're going to get with regards to flow (though it sometimes damages the continuity). Setting up camps after scenarios is a great excuse to give your characters a rest and resume 24 hours later, but there are quite a lot of variables involved in whether you can actually stop with good reason

 

As for the flow of fights, the paragraph thing is a pretty solid idea. I'd take a less descript chunk of text over individual replies to each player, as long as the DM knows how to be adaptive, letting individual responses come into play when things settle down and less players are in the spotlight.

 

Dicks out

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