Cydra

Shadows of Argus - Paragon Edition

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"We will take this war to the Legion's worlds... and prey upon them!"

-Illidan Stormrage

 

Following the recent events upon the Broken Shore Illidan Stormrage used the Sargerite Keystone to return those who faced the Deceiver upon his very own ship in the Nether back to Azeroth before his homeworld would become their grave. This created a link between Azeroth and the fallen planet Argus, bringing the Burning Legion closer than ever to Azeroth.

 

Unbeknownst to all but those who plan to journey to Argus the link will serve as a distraction for the demons. Yes, it will allow them easier entrance into Azeroth, but it will also keep their attention away from defending their homeworld in the process. With the help of a new vessel, the Vindicaar, those who volunteer on what might be a one way journey for some will try to meet with the Army of the Light and if fate wills it two of the most fabled Alliance champions: Turalyon and Alleria Windrunner.

 

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OUR THOUGHTS FOR ARGUS

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It's been a long, strange trip but Paragon has finally made it to the ending of the Legion storyline, the last juice we can squeeze out of this demon-infested expansion after which we can get ourselves a good breather from most things demonic and fel-related. With that in mind we have been looking at some different ways of tackling Argus and Cagi has brought forth an idea that looks like it can deliver well at what we hope to achieve for this content.

 

Originally we had thought about doing the same as we did with the Broken Shore. The issue we ran into here is that Argus is a lot more linear than the Broken Shore was and does not offer the same options. There was also the fact that the Broken Shore, because of how it was run, was dragged out way more than it should've been which led to a decline in interest or overal activity on this end. That combined with the reputation system were a nice change of pace but ultimately not what we were looking for with Argus.

 

To give you a bit of a head's up we will be dividing Argus into altered versions of the original storyline. If you've played through the Argus storyline on retail you'll probably raise your brows at some of the things we've got planned but ultimately if you can set that thought aside you'll find that the core of that storyline is still maintained. There will be about 14 main events that focus on the linear story, divided over all three maps of Argus. Some of these events have a side mission or objective which makes future events easier or more difficult.

While we won't tell you what those are, it's up to the group to determine how to proceed, they will determine if an event was a proper success or a shallow victory at best.

 

I'm going to be personally looking at doing something similar like what was done with the Tomb of Sargeras in the form of fun items, materials or useful relics that people can hunt down on the surface of Krokuun, Mac'Aree and maybe even the Antoran Wastes. This is not a guaranteed thing yet but I'm working on some ideas. Just keep your eyes open, I suppose.

 

 

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THE EVENTS

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Event 1: Alone in the Abyss

DM: Cagi

DATE: Friday 11th September, 2PM ST and 6pm ST

Azeroth's forces gather at the Exodar, to set forth in the newly-built Vindicaar. Led by the Prophet Velen you'll venture into Krokuun where your forces are under assault by the Burning Legion's forces. Your role is to ensure the safety of your only way back home and secure a landing site for your own forces.

 

Event 2: Light Gathering

DM: Cagi

DATE: Sunday 13th September, 2PM ST and 6pm ST

After you met the Broken of Argus you've found yourself a resilient ally against the Burning Legion. Together with High Exarch Turalyon a plan has been set in motion to reach the Xenedar and its precious cargo for without it the campaign on Argus may be doomed to fail before it even begins.

 

Event 3: The Petrified Forest

DM: Cydra

DATE: Tuesday 15th September, 3PM ST

Upon the request of the Broken chieftain Hatuun, a small party has made their way past the patrolling Fel Reaver into the Petrified Forest. Meet with Lead Wrangler Jerek and help the Broken people find out what caused the disappearance of a large number of their already scarce tribe.

 

Event 4: Bounty Hunt - Commander Sothrenael

DM: Sage

DATE: Wednesday 16th September, 8PM ST

A primary target had been discovered during the last assault of the Burning Legion on the Army of the Light. This fel lord known as Commander Sothrenael must be dealt with immediately!

 

Event 5: Planning Phase

DM: Cagi

DATE: Thursday 17th September, 4PM ST

High Exarch Turalyon has called together those from Azeroth and the Army of the Light alike to decide upon the next mission. They can choose between entrenching themselves further on Krokuun, begin to scout out Mac'Aree or set up at the Legion's front door on the Antoran Wastes.

 

Event 6: Light's Judgement

DM: Cagi

DATE: Sunday 20th September, 2PM and 6PM ST

With the prior meeting having concluded with the decision to entrench further upon Krokuun and solidify the defenses it falls to those opposing the Burning Legion to secure Light's Judgement. This powerful cannon was once equipped to the Xenedar but with its crash has become detached. With Grand Artificer Romuul's help this weapon could be placed upon the Vindicaar, instead.

 

Event 7: Bounty Hunt - High Inquisitor Raalgar

DM: Sage

DATE: Thursday 24th September, 2PM and 6PM ST

High Inquisitor Raalgar, a powerful demon, has been spotted en route towards Nath'raxxas Hold. He has been marked as an extremely dangerous target and must be brought down.

 

Event 8: The Annihilan Pits

DM: Cagi

DATE: Sunday 27th September, 2PM and 6PM ST

Now that the Vindicaar has been upgraded with the powerful Light's Judgment it has the firepower necessary to become an incredible asset upon Argus. Within the Annihilan Pits are three pit lords lorded over by their new king Aggonar. Show these demons that even their demonic might is no match for the power of the Light.

 

Event 9: Nath'raxas Spire

DM: Cagi

DATE: Tuesday 29th September, 2PM and 6PM ST

With the removal of the pit lords the Legion's last remaining bastion of power on Krokuul is Nath'raxas Hold, a large base with a spire at the very end with Lord Nath'raxas at the very heart of the hall. The Legion's hold on this area must be broken entirely and the only way out is to bring down the eredar lord that leads the Legion here.

 

Event 10: Vengeance of the High Inquisitor

DM: Cydra

DATE: Friday 2nd October, 3PM ST

Despite having been declared dead, the presence of the fallen High Inquisitor Raalgar can still be felt throughout the area where he met his supposed demise. Lord Illidan and his Illidari seek to investigate the area and snuff out whatever remains of this upper level demon permanently.

 

Event 11: Landing on Mac'Aree

DM: Cydra

DATE: Monday 5th October, 3.30PM ST

The time has come to traverse to Mac'Aree and begin to assemble the Crown of the Triumvirate. As you descend into the ruins of eredar civilization, however, you realize that the past and present are reuniting...

 

Event 12: The Sigil of Awakening

DM: Cagi

DATE: Wednesday 14th October, 2PM ST and 6PM ST

Now that a forward post has been put together at Triumvirate's End the search for the fragments of the Crown begins. Starting at the old Conservatory of the Arcane the Sigil of Awakening is the first of the pieces to be sought for.

 

Event 13: Old Ties: Talgath

DM: Cagi

DATE: Monday 19th October, 2PM ST and 6PM ST

Following the retrieval of Archimonde's piece of the crown the Army of the Light has discovered that Prophet Velen has gone missing. Worse than that, they report that it was the Burning Legion who supposedly found the Prophet and are delivering him unto an old familiar of his: Talgath. Make your way to the Prophet before he is lost to us!

 

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TRAVEL NOTES

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You can travel to and from Argus using the Army of the Light's beacons. One has been placed on Krasus' Landing in Dalaran, the other can be found on the Vindicaar. While the Vindicaar spawns on Krokuun, Mac'Aree and Antoran Wastes have beacons that will return you to Dalaran, the beacon found in Dalaran will only return you to Krokuul.

 

Teleport Locations:

[VindiKrok] / [VindiMac] / [VindiAnto]

[KrokulHovel]

[ShatteredFields]

[Xenedar]

[DestinyPoint]

[MacAree]

[TriumviratesEnd]

[ConservatoryoftheArcane]

 

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LOOT & TREASURES

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Inspired by people taking to occupy themselves with the item hunting in the Tomb of Sargeras, I've been seeking to continue that idea. Going out into Argus and facing uncommonly strong opponents or digging into the ruins of a broken world will be your primary means of acquiring items or loot. These items could be useful but, as is with any hunt for loot, they could also simply suck.

 

While I'm not going to give you the list of what you can find - all items that are picked up or found will be posted here, even if they aren't the cool items that might tickle your pickle.

 

How does one get loot?

Some items are found by scavenging through the ruins of Argus or simply from killing enemies - a specific foe, or a particular race of creature.

Another way is by locating the various treasure chests scattered over Krokuun and Mac'Aree. These treasure chests, however, are sealed away by colored runes.

 

What are these runes?

At the Conservatory of the Arcane are three individuals: High Wakener Aargon, Arc-Consul Velara and Grand Vizier Jarasum. They hold dominion over a specific aspect of the Conservatory's teachings and can bestow the gift of a specific colored rune upon you if you prove yourself worthy.

A rune color can only be handed out once per day, and only one rune per person. These runes are then infused into your body, allowing you to serve as the key for the many barriers that cover the chests you wish to open.

 

Wakener's Book of Crafting Taken by Arystor, given to Alvia

Written by High Wakener Aargon, this old eredar tome describes an extensive list of designs, theories, calculations and materials on the subject of the fabled Argussian Vigilants. The book is written entirely in an ancient dialect of eredun, preceding the demonic and draenic variations thereof. Those who understand either can make out a few words but many phrases will look like random gibberish.

While the tome describes the means of building a Vigilant the materials listed are only found on Argus. The book does not describe the means of soulbinding to attach a soul to the mechanical host body.

 

Ring of Mirrors Taken by Tayu

Damaged but not beyond repair this signet ring belonged to one of the elite of the Conservatory of Mac'Aree. In its damaged condition the ring is entirely powerless and, in fact, little more than a useless bauble that one can still wear on one's finger.

In order to restore the ring one must use materials found on Argus and bring both with the damaged ring to a jewelcrafter that can work with the materials necessary. Repairing the ring might also bring back its hidden ability.

 

Mold of the Defiler (Shoulders) Taken by Alvia

When Archimonde swore his loyalty to Sargeras he had ordered the smiths of Argus to fashion himself new adornments that would befit his station as the commander of the Dark Titan's armies. This mold holds the same shape of the Defiler's signature shoulder armor.

Armor crafted from this mold will resemble a replica of Archimonde's shoulder armor.

 

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Woo! Hype. Looking forward to it! I've never played the Legion expansion on retail let alone Argus so I know nothing about it. Guess it works out in this situation.

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So, despite all the posturing about more player agency in Argus and not just...redoing retail quest chains, we're just redoing retail quest chains but in a wacky order.

 

Cool.

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I returned to the server under the impression that things had changed and we'd be capable of producing a story our way rather than adhering to retail storylines and procedures.

 

This does not inspire confidence.

 

Syth has been working on a plotline in the Steppes that many have been hoping to see as a method to contact the Lightforged or find our way to Argus. I've personally been trying to push for stealing a Legion Dreadnought and turning it into an alternative entry ship for Argus shenanigans before the Vindicaar appears.

 

These ideas have been ignored, and it looks like we're still being forced onto a Retail Rail Line.

 

Has anything actually changed? Where is the creative freedom we were promised?

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15 minutes ago, Oni said:

I returned to the server under the impression that things had changed and we'd be capable of producing a story our way rather than adhering to retail storylines and procedures.

 

This does not inspire confidence.

 

Syth has been working on a plotline in the Steppes that many have been hoping to see as a method to contact the Lightforged or find our way to Argus. I've personally been trying to push for stealing a Legion Dreadnought and turning it into an alternative entry ship for Argus shenanigans before the Vindicaar appears.

 

These ideas have been ignored, and it looks like we're still being forced onto a Retail Rail Line.

 

Has anything actually changed? Where is the creative freedom we were promised?

 

Yeah this seems pretty cool. I didn't know Syth was intending that. But I could see us arriving and doing different quests via a hijacked Legion ship than the lore artifact holders on the Vindicaar. Though we could get a ride back on it at the end. Would be pretty cool. Hell, if we really wanted, we could take desolate zones from all over, WoD even and make them alternate areas of Argus. We'd do a separate adventure entirely though I know that's beyond Paragon's acceptance. Still, it'd be fun.

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Well, it wasn't really meant to be a big thing, just a way to introduce the Lightforged Draenei characters to RP without forcing it to happen on Argus, or waiting for Argus to come. I had no intent to push for more than that, but I wouldn't necessarily stop it either. The potential is there, so if it became a popular idea, I'd support it.

 

It's unfortunate that time constraints have set me back a bit. But, we'll see what I can do.

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The DM Team, myself and Cagi, and the Moderator Team can see what has been jotted down for Shadows of Argus.

I'm not sure who's done it on retail, but I have, and I can tell you that it's not the same from what happens on retail. While, yes, the core of those events remain to ensure that in the end what is supposed to happen happens, it is still player action that determines the conclusion of an event being an actual success.

You might achieve a victory but if you screwed up, knowingly or completely unintentionally along the way, you're still going to feel the after-effect of that further down the line. In the same sense the opposite is true: If you go through some of these missions with a near perfect execution you'll notice some of the next events will be significantly easier.

 

The way players handle themselves in these events determines how the next event will play out. The scenario will change and it is supposed to encourage you to think differently. Do you want to overkill on something that became an easier target? Do you want to send out less people? Have you screwed up and do you need to suddenly face two or three more threats at the same time? Just like if you fail to help some of your allies in an event, they might be less inclined to trust you and help you.

 

Honestly, the idea on the Legion ship... I'm not sure what to read anymore. First you wanted to preserve its core, then you wanted to shipjack it and send it crashing into Argus with no real target - claiming your demons would give you the answers on vital places. Now it would be a way in.

 

While I do agree that using the Burning Steppes as a stepping stone for Argus is a good idea, I'm fine with either way of starting things off.

 

On the artifact holders, since I saw them mentioned, you're probably only going to see like... five. Lady Liadrin, Aethas Sunreaver, High Priestess Ishanah, Kor'vas Bloodthorn and Jace Darkweaver. I'm writing this with little time on hand so I didn't really go and check if there were other candidates on this part.

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11 minutes ago, Cydra said:

Honestly, the idea on the Legion ship... I'm not sure what to believe anymore. First you wanted to preserve its core, then you wanted to shipjack it and send it crashing into Argus with no real target - claiming your demons would give you the answers on vital places. Now it would be a way in. 

 

While I do agree that using the Burning Steppes as a stepping stone for Argus is a good idea, I'm fine with either way of starting things off.

Gosh. It's almost like what my character says and what I intend are two different things! I know this is a shocking concept, but plans can differ between ooc intent and what the character is doing based on ic knowledge! :D

 

Many people have discussed using the Steppes. It was clearly not considered or we would see something about that here rather than another generic story plot event. It isn't until I called it out that we're now seeing a response regarding the possibility.

 

I can only trust that the players will be able to change the progress of Argus and how we handle it when I see that happen rather than... This. There were 1000 ways to handle entry to Argus and the fact that I'm seeing a shoehorn for the Vindicaar Krokuun intro is what has me hesitant at the claims that there WILL be changes.

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Right, I figured I'd step in on this one since I noticed Tass was getting flak for what's all my work.

 

Hey hey people, it's the guy who made the Broken Shore Campaign, and the same one who made this very campaign and asked Tass write up the post in my stead.

I might as well classify a few things with this before people turn arms against someone who's had much less to do with this than you think:

 

1. This campaign will have a slightly more linear route than Broken Shore, but that doesn't mean the order and route can't be determined by the player, which I intend to notify after the first two intro quests. The reason is that I do not think it wise to be treating this campaign like Broken Shore, as Argus is not one landmass with a coordinated military effort of multiple military factions. It's far more ragtag and makes much less sense to bring a massive amount of forces into the equation.

 

2. Tass' involvement was supplying me with proper building and perspectives from a retail side. While I want to use certain assets from the retail story, I want to offer a twist that can substantially alter the storyline of Argus for a custom story BASED on the original story.

 

3. Yes. I'm going to be doing a few events based on canon story. That doesn't mean you can't get access from other events, run them in congruence of Argus, do events in between these events in Argus or seek to alter events.

 

8 hours ago, Oni said:

I can only trust that the players will be able to change the progress of Argus and how we handle it when I see that happen rather than... This. There were 1000 ways to handle entry to Argus and the fact that I'm seeing a shoehorn for the Vindicaar Krokuun intro is what has me hesitant at the claims that there WILL be changes.

 

There are ways to get access to Argus, and you seem to be under the false assumption that we'll only accept one. Just because we want people to act more independently and change things themselves doesn't mean we want to waste dope scenarios with cutscenes, voice lines and visuals. We're not in a fully custom lore just yet, and the moment that happens, you guys are left to your own devices with that mess because I'll want nothing to do with it.

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Fingers crossed some of these will be US friendly.

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1 hour ago, Cagi said:

This campaign will have a slightly more linear route than Broken Shore

 

So you're telling me the promises of freedom to do what we want were lies? If you've pre-determined the route that is.

 

1 hour ago, Cagi said:

Tass' involvement was supplying me with proper building and perspectives from a retail side. While I want to use certain assets from the retail story, I want to offer a twist that can substantially alter the storyline of Argus for a custom story BASED on the original story.

 

I don't care who decided on the current setup. I don't like it regardless if it was you or Tass. Argus was supposed to be different. There were so many options people have been excited and pushing for in regards to introducing Argus and they're being ignored for the same regurgitated retelling of the story. You CANNOT expect people to believe you're going to allow freedom to approach this however they want when the LITERAL approach is the same story as retail. You also quite literally state the story will be linear, meaning you already have plans in motion for who what when where and how.

 

So, we aren't getting the free choice and free approach method we were promised.

 

If we were being given the choice for how we, the players, want to approach this, then there are other options.

 

These options haven't even been considered.

 

And before you state that the reason Argus is being handled like this is to allow people to create their own stories during the Grace Period between Legion and BFA, that isn't what we asked for. We asked to just make Argus personal and interesting to us and to let us handle it the way we want. This isn't letting us handle it the way we want. It's using NPCs and not letting the players have any modicum of personal stake or claim to the story.

 

1 hour ago, Cagi said:

Yes. I'm going to be doing a few events based on canon story. That doesn't mean you can't get access from other events, run them in congruence of Argus, do events in between these events in Argus or seek to alter events.

 

I'm going to reiterate my earlier point. This means the story has been predetermined again. We did custom things on the isles too and people still considered that to be a blizzard rail shooter because we want to change the main story. Not be fed offshoot stories that we have influence over that aren't relevant to the big picture. Doing events between events is exactly what we were doing before.

 

I straight up do not believe that events will allow for the alteration of the plot. If that was the case, we'd see a different introduction to Argus, because there are plenty of people trying to figure out other ways to get there.

 

But rather than utilize those ways, it's the Vindicaar and Krokuun. This just shows nothing has changed. If you want to prove it's going to be different, then make it different.

 

1 hour ago, Cagi said:

you guys are left to your own devices with that mess because I'll want nothing to do with it.

 

Do you not think this is a problem? The DM Managers who are supposed to be in charge of the team that is our storytelling backbone both refuse to have anything to do with custom storylines? You're essentially claiming you're going to strike Argus if it's not a blizzard rail shooter from what I'm reading and understanding.

 

If that isn't the case, please feel free to explain what you mean.

 

43 minutes ago, Kira said:

Fingers crossed some of these will be US friendly.

 

I'm doubtful. There's a reason we've had to make a discord specifically for 'late night' players.

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Okie dokie! I'm back from the shop, loaded on caffeine and ready to peel everything about this apart one by one~!

For starters, your intended 'player agency' at the start was to pilot a vessel from the Burning Steppes with one party going to the Xenedar and another to Mac'aree.
I would like to issue two points on that matter that may not make you enjoy that idea~!

1: If you spend time getting the pieces for the Crown, even if neither are in the Seat without meeting her, Alleria will have less cause to go to Mac'aree, thus halting the need to introduce Void Elves as playable until either the end of Argus or the start of BfA as her time spent will be primarily in response to the Shadowguard after all that goes down. You'd be intentionally gimping massive amounts of the story and the Seat essentially becomes a quest for Alleria to intentionally become something volatile and likely a threat to the Army.

 

2. By introducing this 'new' means for transport, you're just doing the exact same thing as the canon but with extra steps just to say it was 'us' who did it. Take into account, the Burning Steppes is on a temporary slowdown while Syth is away, and if people wanna do this well...guess we'll start Argus next month then, eh?

 

We wanted to provide a shortened experience that wasn't going to last months like the Broken Shore did. You obviously weren't around for that but by offering everyone literal free reign on everything, several of us were on the brink of mental instability. What we're offering however, is while we do have a somewhat canon start, we instead offer players the chance to completely tip the canon on its head while following the path of their choosing based on democratic vote amongst the Army of the Light and the chance to get preemptive acquisition of resources and early access to void elves, any storyline in the three regions and to even change the flow of events like the Seat of the Triumvirate, start guerilla campaigns in the Antoran Wastes while fighting raid bosses from Antorus and even completely conquer Krokuun. 

 

During this time, players get to introduce whatever assets they so choose to have events on the side to further manipulate and allow the story to mutate, with something that took me BLOODY AGES to set up and am perfectly willing to let people throw it around like a chewtoy.

I am not however, going to take the hit of losing all of my work, and I am not going to be happy about people trying to make another Broken Shore where the DMs are repeatedly hounded for something one guy set up just so people can turn Argus' story into a 100% fanfiction.

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As for US times, I have no issue with doing stuff during that time, and if the server so wishes, I can host it at 4-6pm ST and see where things go from there.

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10 minutes ago, Cagi said:

1: If you spend time getting the pieces for the Crown, even if neither are in the Seat without meeting her, Alleria will have less cause to go to Mac'aree, thus halting the need to introduce Void Elves as playable until either the end of Argus or the start of BfA as her time spent will be primarily in response to the Shadowguard after all that goes down. You'd be intentionally gimping massive amounts of the story and the Seat essentially becomes a quest for Alleria to intentionally become something volatile and likely a threat to the Army.

 

....This doesn't make any sense. There are plenty of ways to get Alleria there early if you work dynamically and think outside the box.

 

The call of the void. Easy. Send her there lured by the call and let her interact with the players that show up at Mac'aree rather than Krokuun. All this requires is that you're willing to bend the story, which is the entire point I'm trying to make about creative freedom and player agency.

 

Let her come and participate with the players on her own. Who said that can't be done? She doesn't have to be the star of the show to still earn her character development and void form.

 

13 minutes ago, Cagi said:

2. By introducing this 'new' means for transport, you're just doing the exact same thing as the canon but with extra steps just to say it was 'us' who did it. Take into account, the Burning Steppes is on a temporary slowdown while Syth is away, and if people wanna do this well...guess we'll start Argus next month then, eh?

 

Is the Steppes ship the only one? Because last I checked, Kaiden convinced Terin to help her steal a different ship specifically because getting the Steppes one would be too difficult. Again, outside the box. Cerrin was offering a potential ship crash to be repaired. There are methods. People are trying. They want to work together and they want to have a hand in the story. Yes. YES. I want it to be US who did it. I want US to matter. Why are we playing this game if it's not for our OWN fun?

 

17 minutes ago, Cagi said:

we instead offer players the chance to completely tip the canon on its head while following the path of their choosing based on democratic vote amongst the Army of the Light and the chance to get preemptive acquisition of resources and early access to void elves, any storyline in the three regions and to even change the flow of events like the Seat of the Triumvirate, start guerilla campaigns in the Antoran Wastes while fighting raid bosses from Antorus and even completely conquer Krokuun. 

 

You literally just argued against pre-emptively accessing Mac'Aree and pursuing the Crest of Knowledge because it would affect Alleria.

 

19 minutes ago, Cagi said:

I am not however, going to take the hit of losing all of my work, and I am not going to be happy about people trying to make another Broken Shore where the DMs are repeatedly hounded for something one guy set up just so people can turn Argus' story into a 100% fanfiction.

 

So we have to play within your realm of possibilities or it's a no go?

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21 minutes ago, Oni said:

So we have to play within your realm of possibilities or it's a no go?

 

That's the literal definition of how anything goes. You clearly don't seem to care about the sheer stress load it takes to actually run these things, unless you want to allow us to take months to complete this, essentially making it so we'll be in BfA around January. Broken Shore took 3 months. We really don't want to put dozens of events into that.

 

21 minutes ago, Oni said:

You literally just argued against pre-emptively accessing Mac'Aree and pursuing the Crest of Knowledge because it would affect Alleria.

 

By doing the intro, we get access to Alleria.

 

21 minutes ago, Oni said:

Is the Steppes ship the only one? Because last I checked, Kaiden convinced Terin to help her steal a different ship specifically because getting the Steppes one would be too difficult. Again, outside the box. Cerrin was offering a potential ship crash to be repaired. There are methods. People are trying. They want to work together and they want to have a hand in the story. Yes. YES. I want it to be US who did it. I want US to matter. Why are we playing this game if it's not for our OWN fun?

 

 

If people really want to do this, I'm more than happy to put this to a community poll to see what they really think, but if that's the case, we're holding Argus back until a consensus can be reached regardless of the outcome.

 

21 minutes ago, Oni said:

Let her come and participate with the players on her own. Who said that can't be done? She doesn't have to be the star of the show to still earn her character development and void form.

 

It has a lot less viability when you've got someone suddenly asking for aid in turning into an abomination of the void by eating a revenant and a naaru.

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3 minutes ago, Cagi said:

That's the literal definition of how anything goes. You clearly don't seem to care about the sheer stress load it takes to actually run these things, unless you want to allow us to take months to complete this.

 

You do understand I ran The Karazhan and Ulduar intros, Broken Shore Intro, a TON of Val'sharah, Emerald Nightmare, Darkheart Thicket, Maw of Souls, Trial of Valor, and the intro to Stormheim for the Alliance, right?

 

Are you aware that VS took us a few weeks? That emerald nightmare was less than two weeks? That each dungeon took 1 week or less to complete?

 

You are aware of how much I've done and how long I've DMed for this server, right?

 

Don't give me that. Do not. This is not "my way or the highway". I've had entire events cut from 4 hours to 1/1.5 because players were smart and they did interesting things that weren't in my plans for the event. I worked around it. Because Dungeon Masters are supposed to provide fun, and they were having fun. I've improv'd time and time again for people. It's not hard. It doesn't take a lot to change a few ideas.

 

If you have that much work planned that's going to be "wasted" by this, then you're overplanning and railroading the story.

 

I know what it takes because I've done this for years Cagi. Don't act like I'm not talking from experience.

 

11 minutes ago, Cagi said:

If people really want to do this, I'm more than happy to put this to a community poll to see what they really think, but if that's the case, we're holding Argus back until a consensus can be reached regardless of the outcome.

 

There isn't a need for a community consensus. Just let it happen. You want to follow a script so bad? Do your vindicaar stuff. Enjoy Krokuun.

 

I'm stealing a Legion Ship and going to Mac'aree. And I'm going to take whoever wants to come.

 

Because that's creative freedom. That's player agency. That's letting players matter and letting players have a choice.

 

If the fact that we want something out of the box is that detrimental to your ability to DM, then go do Krokuun. I'll write it off as another zone story lost to the server's rail shoot style. Don't stop Mac'aree from happening at the same time. Let people have fun. Let people do something different.

 

15 minutes ago, Cagi said:

It has a lot less viability when you've got someone suddenly asking for aid in turning into an abomination of the void by eating a revenant and a naaru.

 

And why exactly is it more viable if Velen and the army of the chads are there? We're going there on a LEGION ship if it happens. Several of the notable folks frontlining the idea of hijacking a Legion Ship to Argus are dark casters and understand utilizing evil magic against the legion. They're MORE likely to be accepting of Alleria's pursuit of the void.

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1 minute ago, Oni said:

You do understand I ran The Karazhan and Ulduar intros, Broken Shore Intro, a TON of Val'sharah, Emerald Nightmare, Darkheart Thicket, Maw of Souls, Trial of Valor, and the intro to Stormheim for the Alliance, right?

 

Are you aware that VS took us a few weeks? That emerald nightmare was less than two weeks? That each dungeon took 1 week or less to complete?

 

You are aware of how much I've done and how long I've DMed for this server, right?

 

Don't give me that. Do not. This is not "my way or the highway". I've had entire events cut from 4 hours to 1/1.5 because players were smart and they did interesting things that weren't in my plans for the event. I worked around it. Because Dungeon Masters are supposed to provide fun, and they were having fun. I've improv'd time and time again for people. It's not hard. It doesn't take a lot to change a few ideas.

 

If you have that much work planned that's going to be "wasted" by this, then you're overplanning and railroading the story.

 

I know what it takes because I've done this for years Cagi. Don't act like I'm not talking from experience.

 

Good for you, you've done a bunch of events in short space all the while acting on a railroaded system yourself, doing everything to a TEE with the story which were static, boring and the exact reason we were making changes to the system. So we wouldn't make a repeat of your work.

I will make a statement on it because what we did took creative thought, proper time to plan beyond just building and getting voice/video files and discussing with the moderation team about an experience we can come together and say 'yeah this seems interesting enough'.

We're not you, and the fact you didn't step up to try and alter the story during your time as a major DM seems to say volumes about the fact you're lambasting us now.

 

4 minutes ago, Oni said:

There isn't a need for a community consensus. Just let it happen. You want to follow a script so bad? Do your vindicaar stuff. Enjoy Krokuun.

 

I'm stealing a Legion Ship and going to Mac'aree. And I'm going to take whoever wants to come.

 

Because that's creative freedom. That's player agency. That's letting players matter and letting players have a choice.

 

If the fact that we want something out of the box is that detrimental to your ability to DM, then go do Krokuun. I'll write it off as another zone story lost to the server's rail shoot style. Don't stop Mac'aree from happening at the same time. Let people have fun. Let people do something different.

 

By all means! But you're doing it at your own pace as we are ourselves then. Have fun keeping up and getting a DM to assist in it. I can certainly aid in giving them ideas on HOW to make it viable despite everything going on.

 

6 minutes ago, Oni said:

And why exactly is it more viable if Velen and the army of the chads are there? We're going there on a LEGION ship if it happens. Several of the notable folks frontlining the idea of hijacking a Legion Ship to Argus are dark casters and understand utilizing evil magic against the legion. They're MORE likely to be accepting of Alleria's pursuit of the void.

 

If you're accepting of us running at the same time, I hope you understand I'll be using Alleria and Velen for the intro anyways, which we will be getting done over the course of a few days. If you're not going to accept the terms of a consensus, we're going to keep going as we are and make use of what we have. It's clear you've no intention to coordinate and want to run roughshod in defiance for the hell of it, and I'm not interested in supporting it. God save whatever DM actually does.

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Let's all take a step back and breathe. Please.

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24 minutes ago, Cagi said:

Good for you, you've done a bunch of events in short space all the while acting on a railroaded system yourself, doing everything to a TEE with the story which were static, boring and the exact reason we were making changes to the system. So we wouldn't make a repeat of your work.

I will make a statement on it because what we did took creative thought, proper time to plan beyond just building and getting voice/video files and discussing with the moderation team about an experience we can come together and say 'yeah this seems interesting enough'.

We're not you, and the fact you didn't step up to try and alter the story during your time as a major DM seems to say volumes about the fact you're lambasting us now.

 

I didn't have the option to let people change things. I was told we were following the story the way it was meant to be. We're now allowed to do things differently. So let people do it differently.

 

If I could have avoided the rail shooter, I would have. It doesn't take a ton of work

 

24 minutes ago, Cagi said:

If you're accepting of us running at the same time, I hope you understand I'll be using Alleria and Velen for the intro anyways, which we will be getting done over the course of a few days. If you're not going to accept the terms of a consensus, we're going to keep going as we are and make use of what we have. It's clear you've no intention to coordinate and want to run roughshod in defiance for the hell of it, and I'm not interested in supporting it. God save whatever DM actually does.

 

It's not for the hell of it. It's because I do NOT want to do the Vindicaar Krokuun intro. It's because I WANT to have some actual stake in the war. It's because PLAYERS should feel like they matter and that this is THEIR story. Not Velen and Company take The Player on a Wild Ride.

 

If you have this much issue with the idea, and you don't think the other DMs are willing to handle this, then let me.

 

I'll run Mac'aree, and I'll show how players can have choice and a custom story without killing the DM.

 

EDIT** I posted this just as you did Sage. I'll leave it at this.

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5 minutes ago, Oni said:

I didn't have the option to let people change things. I was told we were following the story the way it was meant to be. We're not allowed to do differently. So let people do it differently.

 

If I could have avoided the rail shooter, I would have. It doesn't take a ton of work

 

I on the other hand, did avoid the rail shooter. How? By preemptively preparing the system in mind in response to how players wanted something different from events that were between 1 and a half to three hours of just shooting at a boss long enough to let it drop dead and then grab the random loot with no semblance of actual value.

You say you did improv but it was probably more during ERs or impromptu events at best, because the only thing I missed was the Broken Shore Intro and some Val'sharah stuff. It was all linear.

There was no sign of you talking to the community, asking for alternative options and thinking of ways to take this to the EM and moderator, which I did in the position as a simple DM with no power. Everything from then on was a PAINSTAKING discussion with the people up top because EMs don't have as much power as you think, and we spent months wracking our brains to make Argus interesting to the point where I went with the idea of a narrative mutative campaign that runs with some canon elements. All of a sudden the idea's dropped and screeching ensues. Didn't have the option...I call complete bollocks on that because as it turns out, the mods and EM were extremely receptive to an offered product that had substance and structure instead of talking about something and never getting it done.

You seem to think that because I'm using some of the canon that it'll be another situation where we're just tagalongs, but I design them in mind for them to be working side by side, the story characters having flaws throughout instead of being perfect and just there to claim everything. I was planning to have people become void elves alongside Alleria if they so chose for example. I was planning to have people acquire the Crown while non-canon assailants lurked in the shadows, the Legion would be more difficult because people can't expect JUST the canon, and prior actions WILL have consequences or rewards in the future.

You also seem to think just because I want SOME canon events to occur that there will be no element of choice, since every step of the campaign will in fact be a joint decision by the players on what they want to do. If it isn't any of the three zones, then that's a mutation I'm happy to accept, but the offer for each step of the plan will always be on the table.

 

You keep talking about doing this hijacking but I'm not gonna stop ya.

I don't however feel comfortable about someone with your level of confrontational attitude and consistent need to make assumptions to assume the role of a DM, even temp.

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i dont mind cagis idea for macaree with the triumverate, nor do i mind onis with the ship. but i do not think oni should dm any of macaree if the ship she steals ic is involved at all.

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So, whatever the conversation above (there's so much, I didn't read it, and there's not enough money you could pay me to do that), I guess the disheartening thing is, like...how do I put this...

 

So, we kinda'...know what's going to happen, right? Nobody really wants to LARP retail, because we, y'know, have retail.

 

What will get people on and playing is unexpected shit. Original characters to serve as antagonists that are linked to the main story (to make the content both custom and serving to drive the overall narrative), twists and turns that the Blizzard storyline does not have/that divorce themselves from the railroad of that storyline entirely.

 

That kind of thing is what will get people invested, what will generate fun, and what will have people logging on each week in anticipation for after making a bowl of popcorn.

 

It's good to read, though, that there will be altered versions of the storyline. I hope they're more altered than not. It would be good to take the reigns and write our own way to the Titan of Death, instead of have that way directed for us.

 

Carry on smartly.

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A couple of note - we're not touching Antorus. The vote of the community said for us not to touch Antorus - though there's special things planned.

Secondly - I would urge people to give Cagi a chance on this story he has in mind.
 

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Well, I guess I'm neutral in this. I never played Legion in retail so one Argus campaign is the same as another to me.  I like the railroaded retail events but I also like the special custom ones too. I'm sure once the drama is settled, it will be fun. Well, I'll find it fun anyway. I know many on the server have strong opinions one way or the other. Maybe I'm just too old to care lol Good luck to w/e DM does it.

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