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melvin

COMMUNITY Prestige Classes

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Donator

@Hydra 
I told you I'd be doing this.

This is based off specific replies from here.

Prestige Classes are an RPG-based type of class that is, generally, a more advanced version/variant of a base class. We see this in the Argent Dawn Templar (now made as simply Templar here) and other RPG classes. In MM&M we see this in the Ley walker, in APG we see this in Ursa totemic, and more. These classes are strong, specialized, and some spin on a base class or something of the sort. They are particularly potent in what they do, and have special abilities that have a style unique to that class/profession. Some classes in the RPG we have more ranking too or have done simplifying to. Some classes aren't even really defined here anymore due to the stupid RPG destruction a while back.

So, based on the fact that Paragon doesn't have it defined? I wanted to propose something simple: All prestige classes that have a clarification / guide / addition post up must do a couple of things / answer any number of the below questions:
 

  • What class are they a variant / prestige variant of?
  • What does this class specialize in?

What makes them stand out from their base class?

  • What warrants them being a class/variant?

This particular question is answered to make sure you avoid getting the questions of 'why not just do x' and other such questions.

  • Are there any special rituals/rites involved?
  • What are the boons and the shortcomings of the class?
  • Do they have any special Order/Organization?
  • Do they, if no to the above, have any pull within a current order/organization?
  • Are applications involved in becoming one/in any part of the class itself?
  • If it involves a class that was deprecated before: Do you want old players to be able to grandfather themselves back in?


Generally, the idea I want to propose to set out is that a Prestige Class clarification/addition/guide needs to set out why they should be a separate class / a variant class that is recognized by Paragon. As seen on the templar thread, it may be raised that what a class does is just what 'x' does but with a special flair. There's probably a bunch of other concerns raised to go over - such as if they have pull in another group/organization/military vs their own, what they can do another class already does, and more. 

This isn't a full guide to what I think prestige classes should look like, but something I wanted to put forward to help the discussions about them. I know I love the idea, personally, of some of these prestige classes of ye olden days. The themes to ley walkers, runemasters, sisters of steel, or even templars all sound pretty cool for characters. However, I also acknowledge that Paragon has had a love-hate relationship with the RPG and with other areas - like applications!

I do think that if more things similar to the Templars are to appear, they do need to be weighed carefully. I do think, in the future, some concerns should be thrown out the window. Magic is so versatile that it's going to overlap into other territories. One thing isn't going to be as unique to a class anymore, but their variant/spin on it could be special to them. The end goal is to show that they can be a thing. I'm sure it would get annoying to get asked 'why not just use it as a title?/TRP class?' or 'why not just play x but with this spin on it'. These things are bound to happen!

People will try to oversimplify a prestige class into 'okay but its just a really strong bulky warrior' (Bonecrusher) and rinse/repeat as needed.


Yeah, soggy out here making more threads. I've been inspired today.

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Developer

I'll have to invest some time to gather thoughts on how to go about this, but one thing I really like is how you approached this with asking questions as a sort of checklist, almost a flowchart. brb making a visio document

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Admin

I'll be adding my thoughts to this as the post evolves, but I think it's important we preface that base variants are capable of prestige-class levels of power. Prestige-classes are similar to the base class, but with different flavors and tool-kits. Templars are going to be a prime example, I feel, since it's the most recent clarification on a (since) revoked RPG class. They have switch up the typical paladin /priest tool-kit by basing their powers in sacrifice and have a different flavor than your base priest/paladin. These classes are still equal, but obviously have a bit more flowery writing associated with them.

I think as we update the class guides this'll become more clear, but anyway. Looking forward to see feedback on this from the community!

Cheers,
Turtle

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Your checklist asks a lot of questions that'll need a lot of explanation when answered. I think it's better we just let people answer those questions on their own when they post their lore additions. In other words, I'm not sure we need this. 

 

On the topic of prestige classes though, I think you'll find almost all of them can already be roleplayed without a lore addition. The lore's very flexible about these things. So, what I hope we start doing is focusing on the organizations themselves, instead of trying to game the server by giving people more spell-lists, especially when 9/10 times those abilities can already be replicated with canon lore anyway. (Quick guides on how to freeform RP with magic are cool though.)

 

If someone wants to detail how to play a particular class (organization aside), I think that should be in the guide section, since it'll be their interpretation and probably perfectly valid anyway. There's no need to standardize such a thing, and keeping it as a guide helps us dodge the potential consequences of legitimizing a bunch of splinter classes. 

 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 10:01 AM, Sage said:

stupid RPG destruction a while back.

no u

 

 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 8:35 PM, Turtle said:

These classes are still equal, but obviously have a bit more flowery writing associated with them.

 

I just want to say something about this. There's always gonna be arguments about which class is better in what situation, because classes aren't all equal - some are better at some things than others, and a lot of their strengths/weaknesses can be abstract, or not even combat based for that matter. That goes without saying.

 

In the Templar thread, I mostly was getting irked because there was an implication that Templars are explicitly better versions of Paladins, which is the kind of thinking that motivated people to ban the RPG in the first place. As long as we aren't making things like that, or overly-gamifying the server, I doubt the return of some RPG lore is really going to do much harm. 

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Admin

I'm still interested in this if we can get more community discussion around it!

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Donator

I think it'd be cool to get both admin's input on both the original post and Yoker's post - as he does raise some good points.

I don't disagree that prestige classes of old don't really need to be a lore addition/clarification but more a guide. But I used this post off the basis of where the Templar one went.

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Moderator

To mirror Yoker's sentiments on this, I think it would be better to allow people who are clarifying prestige classes the freedom of answering whatever questions they think are important to that class. A lot of people put unique twists on their characters that might bend or flex the definition of a class, subclass, or prestige class, and being too specific can hamper creative drive instead of inspire it.

 

I'm personally of the mind that all prestige classes should be at least CMOD though, to at least prove a certain level of understanding with the class. After all, as stated in the post itself, prestige classes can be nuanced or advanced versions of an existing class, and might have specifics they need to adhere to. A Templar not wearing plate for example, might be seen as a player choice by an inexperienced player.

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Admin

Alright lads,

@Yoker @SnaxNViolence @Celarc @Sage @Hydra

 

On 5/27/2021 at 9:51 PM, Yoker said:

On the topic of prestige classes though, I think you'll find almost all of them can already be roleplayed without a lore addition. The lore's very flexible about these things. So, what I hope we start doing is focusing on the organizations themselves, instead of trying to game the server by giving people more spell-lists, especially when 9/10 times those abilities can already be replicated with canon lore anyway. (Quick guides on how to freeform RP with magic are cool though.)

 

If someone wants to detail how to play a particular class (organization aside), I think that should be in the guide section, since it'll be their interpretation and probably perfectly valid anyway. There's no need to standardize such a thing, and keeping it as a guide helps us dodge the potential consequences of legitimizing a bunch of splinter classes. 

 

I just want to say something about this. There's always gonna be arguments about which class is better in what situation, because classes aren't all equal - some are better at some things than others, and a lot of their strengths/weaknesses can be abstract, or not even combat based for that matter. That goes without saying.

 

In the Templar thread, I mostly was getting irked because there was an implication that Templars are explicitly better versions of Paladins, which is the kind of thinking that motivated people to ban the RPG in the first place. As long as we aren't making things like that, or overly-gamifying the server, I doubt the return of some RPG lore is really going to do much harm. 


For the sake of this topic, I'll be referring to the prestige classes provided to us by the RPG (and of course my Templar).

I've been engaged with a lot of individuals that mirror this opinion that the classes in WoW (including the sub-class provided via specializations). The point that's been made to me is that the base class provide enough flexibility and overlap that one could essentially be a hybrid of both classes. Then they can preform the same skills as any 'prestige' class and it doesn't restrict skills or other forms of magic. 

This being said, I've also spoken with the opposition to that opinion. There are others who find the prestige class is incredibly distinct and differentiated from the base classes of the game. While the magic and skills are freeform there is a certain flavor to these classes that aren't present in the base classes. No is saying that certain classes aren't able to preform the same kind of magic or replicate the skills (i.e Templars and Paladins summoning Holy Lightning).

People, rightfully, don't like the idea of having players with applications lord over them either, so I think it's important we attempt to make the distinction that these classes are not better than the variant they might have a root with. Every class has a balance though and I think that's important for us also account for when balancing things like this. If there are no flaws or weaknesses then it becomes more of a one-sided mess that we saw in the past.

Honestly my intention was to differentiate the ADT by simply calling it a Templar, but then I realized there was a templar (base) class technically and a rank associated with it, so I just used the terminology to help distinguish the class itself, but I just opened a can of worms that I didn't intend. Since it's been about a month and we've let this breath I think it warrants another look at.

I'm not saying we bring back every RPG class, but if we did, it'd need an appropriate guide/clarification.  These classes aren't meant to be better than our base classes. Hell we could add a 'prestige' or 'epic' variant onto the core classes if wanted. That might be unneeded because it's restrictive in most cases, but it's something to think about. Or we simply just make it clear that prestige classes are just classes with more flavor and a different toolkit. Regardless, I still want to give all the class guides some love and us staying engaged like this and defining what we want is the first step, so.

Let's get ready to rumble,
Turtle

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On 5/27/2021 at 10:51 PM, Yoker said:

what I hope we start doing is focusing on the organizations themselves

 

Basically what I meant by this, is that these clarifications/additions should be presenting the organizations/traditions these custom classes are coming with, as the meat of the thread. Everyone can RP a Shadow Rogue, but a Lightslayer comes from a specific organization, with traditions and special techniques/aesthetics that are unique to those who followed the path. A Samurai can't copy everything a Knight does, even if they're both swinging steel around - they learned from two different disciplines. A Shadow Rogue and Lightslayer, similarly, could both learn from each other despite both being shadow based rogue-types. Which is fine! 

 

It's important to flesh out the organization, because we already know what the class is capable of in terms of canon lore. Anyone could technically replicate it, but that's not what we're interested in, we're interested in authenticity and cool traditions/lore. 

 

Also. Things shouldn't be restricted unless they carry some real authority, like the Wardens. If we don't do this, it's going to be difficult for these two philosophies of 'free-form' and 'classes' to coexist peacefully. Power's really not an excuse; At best, put them as a CMod, to show understanding of said power - or its secrecy/mystery/etc. 

 

 

Also, this is gonna be controversial, but let's try to keep the fan books out of the mix. The RPG is already non-canon. The fan books were non-canon even when the RPG books were canon, so, if we're really going to use them for something like... a Ley Walker or Runemaster, for example, then we should be very willing to change around how that class works for the sake of making it viable for RP and those who still value Warcraft's lore. 

 

 

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Moderator
7 minutes ago, Yoker said:

It's important to flesh out the organization, because we already know what the class is capable of in terms of canon lore. Anyone could technically replicate it, but that's not what we're interested in, we're interested in authenticity and cool traditions/lore. 

I'm in agreement with this.

 

A lot of 'prestige classes' like the Transcendent have very specific cultural and organizational lore and tradition that need to be understood and adhered to. Using the Transcendent as an example seperate from the Templar, to broaden the perspective here; They are Pandaren-only shaman/monks, that could theoretically still be played with all of their abilities in tact. However the story behind those abilities, and how they're used, as well as the significance behind them in terms of how important they are to that culture, are all a part of the class as well.

 

In that regard, all prestige classes being brought in, need to have a consensus on what we agree is and isn't canon about them, in regards to a narrative sense. Which is where the Lore Additions/Clarifications would come in. They help explain a prestige class beyond just its abilities, but also its story, and why they are significant. To bring it back to Templars, they are called Argent Dawn Templars because they are a part of the Argent Crusade, and it is the Argent Crusades mentality, doctrine, and practices that allowed them to exist. Not the Scarlet Crusade, not the Church of the Holy Light in Stormwind. But the Argent Crusade. And that is an important distinction, that needed to be clarified. Just like other distinctions for other prestige classes.

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Donator

@Turtle

@Celarc

I'm posting the WIP variant of what I was working on for you guys to take a look at. The formatting is being reworked, but here's what I stopped at.

 


[WIP] Prestige Classes & Paragon / Custom Classes & Paragon
 


 

Prestige Classes are classes, on Paragon, that are advanced or taking different spins on another class / use of magic. The Templars, for example, are paladins that sacrifice for greater power. They attain silvery light and other imbuements for giving up things. These classes take on different forms throughout the world of Warcraft. On Paragon, Prestige Classes can sometimes come with limited spots - meant to be rare and exceptional among Azeroth and the universe. 

 

The general idea for prestige classes is that they require a lore clarification to be recognized. You can see examples like the one linked, or view the others currently made. The reason for this is due to our approach of wiping the RPG from the board and our slow process of reintroducing it. Some of the RPG Prestige Classes have also been made into titles, or part of a base class. It is on the player to show why the class should be approved through a thorough clarification which can/should serve as a guide to the class.

 

Some things you should answer for a prestige class:

Spoiler

 

  • What class are they a variant / prestige variant of?
  • What does this class specialize in?
  • What makes them stand out from their base class?
  • What warrants them being a class/variant?
  • This particular question is answered to make sure you avoid getting the questions of 'why not just do x' and other such questions.
  • Are there any special rituals/rites involved?
  • What are the boons and the shortcomings of the class?
  • Do they have any special Order/Organization?
  • Do they, if no to the above, have any pull within a current order/organization?
  • Are applications involved in becoming one/in any part of the class itself?
  • If it involves a class that was deprecated before: Do you want old players to be able to grandfather themselves back in?

 

 

You can look to the Templars for good examples, but these questions assist you and us in making sure that there is plenty of details & thought put into the Class returning. Please note that counter-clarifying a Prestige Class clarification is not allowed.  This does mean you cannot counter them to try and cancel out something that has been previously approved. 


 




Custom Classes, on the other hand, are something different for Paragon. You can find examples here and here. These classes are ones that either existed in fanon alone or have no current form in Warcraft. These are the classes that take an idea and put a spin on them. It is highly advised that you use Hel Knights or Rune-Knights as a basis of what to do for your custom class clarification. These will get scrutiny based on the standards of the team at the time, and that will change as time goes on.

 

The main point of the clarification should be to make it stand out and to make it make sense. We are not going back to the period of Cataclysm Paragon where there were attempts to make Witchers, Sun Knights, and a whole slew of other classes. The classes have to draw from Warcraft and be rooted in some form of the universe that we write in.  There must be clear weaknesses, strength, and reasoning to why it exists and what it does. Another good question to ask is how does one become the class?

 

You can add a Prestige / Elite variant of the class, but this must use the Prestige Class standard when being introduced.


 

Both Custom Classes and Prestige Classes must get a +3 approval to be approved and recognized on Paragon.
(This can be adjusted based on mod team numbers)

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